1) U.S.
  2) Why care about Arc (esp. relative to Clojure)?
     Future direction(s)
     Lessons learned, and the applicability of those lessons to other languages
     Applications (e.g., Jarc on Google App Engine)
  3) Maybe... But I'm really more of a dilettante than a hardcore hacker.
  4) Spring is best, but it doesn't really matter

Even if they did, what's the alternative? Implementation details leak all over the place in a single namespace. And if your project is large enough, you're going to wind up with many little functions & macros (lest you have one giant main function). Even arc.arc winds up exposing things like parse-format, insert-sorted, and reinsert-sorted.

I don't care if it's implemented library-level: I just need a way to keep innards internal. Thus far, I've been using ad hoc methods like

  (mac provide (public . body)
    (let (locals new-body) nil
      (each expr body
        (case (acons&car expr)
          def (let (name . rest) (cdr expr)
                (unless (mem name public)
                  (push name locals)
                  (= expr `(assign ,name (fn ,@rest)))))
          =   (each (var val) (pair (cdr expr))
                (if (~mem var public)
                    (push var locals))))
        (push expr new-body))
      `(let ,locals nil
         ,@(rev new-body))))

In this case, Lathe provides two forms in its more-module-stuff.arc module, 'packing and 'pack-hiding, which work like 'packed but only put certain parts of the "my" namespace into the package object. That way, the internals don't get imported.

The 'packing and 'pack-hiding forms are in a separate module only because they aren't fundamental to Lathe, but in fact, I've never actually wanted to use them. Just having separate namespaces is enough for me, 'cause when I want to have unobtrusive definitions, I can just create a throwaway namespace to put them in.

-

@evanrmurphy http://arclanguage.org/item?id=11975

For what it's worth, Lathe's namespaces are used like this, generally:

  (--specify-what-creates-the-namespace--
    --specify-functions-etc-using-the-namespace--)

"I'm not convinced having namespaces doesn't encourage bloat."

"Even if they did, what's the alternative? If your project is large enough.."

Having one namespace isn't about concision any more than large == bloated (largeness is necessary but insufficient for bloat). Some code (short or long) lends itself to one namespace, some doesn't. And bashing the latter into one namespace doesn't make it concise.

Take arc.arc. It has a lot of code, but fits in one namespace because it rarely defines a function for another's sake. Functions/macros are usually either mutually exclusive library utilities, or were supposed to be exposed anyways (e.g., loop is used to define for, but it's okay, because we wanted loop anyways). Even so, there are cases like =, whose logic is spread across expand=, expand=list, setforms, metafn, and expand-metafn-call.

This versus http://arclanguage.org/item?id=11179, which provides (essentially) just sscontract, but is still large enough to naturally spread across functions that shouldn't be exposed (much like =). What would a "concise" sscontract be? One giant if statement with copy/pasted afns? At least with that method, all of the "bloat" like

  (def priority (c)
    (or (pos [find c _] '("&" ".!" ":~"))
        0))

Maybe we should try and design a set of very basic namespace handling tools, and then allow users to extend off of them. Basic as in "See namespace. See namespace hold names. See namespace export names for use" If we make them simple enough, and generic enough, it should be possible to add whatever other features are necessary later.

Lathe's approach (where namespaces are friendly-name-to-unfriendly-global-name tables encapsulated by macros):

  arc> (use-rels-as ut (+ lathe-dir* "utils.arc"))
  #(tagged mac #<procedure: nspace-indirect>)
  arc> (macex1 '(ut (xloop a list.7 b 0 a.b)))
  (gs2012-xloop a list.7 b 0 a.b)
  arc> (macex '(ut (xloop a list.7 b 0 a.b)))
  ((rfn next (a b) a.b) list.7 0)
  arc> (ut:xloop a list.7 b 0 a.b)
  7

Funny, that's part of what I had in mind as I made Lathe's module system. :-p Is there some aspect of Lathe's namespace handling that's inconsistent with what you have in mind? The point of the Lathe module system is mainly to keep the rest of the Lathe utilities safe from name conflicts, so I'll gladly swap it out if we can come up with a better approach.

You can do something similar to my class macros, see:

  http://arclanguage.org/item?id=12003

  In a library file mylib.arc
  (namespace mylib)
  (def func-a ...)
  ...

   (use mylib (func-a func-b)) or (use mylib *) or (use mylib)
   Now we can write
   (func-a ...) (func-b ...)
   and for a function that we didn't import inside the
   namespace; we can write:
   (mylib/func-c ...)

  (module mylib
    (def func-a ...))

  (w/module mylib
    (func-a ...))